Sunday, October 23, 2011

Marine Corps. Sgt. Shamar Thomas vs. A Bunch of Cops

Sometimes the voice of one man can actually turn a tide.


Mike D. said...

I really don't understand. The things he claimed the police were doing are the polar opposite of what the police were actually doing in this video.

This video clearly shows "Occupy" protestors being taught how to get arrested, how to craft a public media spectacle.

If there is one person who supports these protests who wouldn't mind discussing them honestly, what is the purpose of intentionally creating situations that will lead to arrests? Is it to encourage the spirit of rebellion in young minds? Is it to generate a feeling in society that the protestors are victims, to appeal to the basic human nature to cheer for the underdog?

If it is either or both of my ideas, then it is psychological manipulation, and it is dishonest, pure and simple.

If you are going to deflect my question by pointing to the behavior of your opponents as justification for these scripted arrests, please do not respond. I wish to hear from someone who is willing to have an honest, intellectual conversation, and I do not mind being told that my analysis is wrong.

Matt Robinson? Are you still around? The last thread you jumped in on moved to Page Two just when it was getting really interesting. I was really hoping J.W. would try to kick it back to the top. But I would love to hear you weigh in on this one as well, while it is still fresh.

Not Really said...

Yeah, I actually agree somewhat with Mike D. here - the policemen are standing there patiently listening to this guy berate them. They're not beating up on anyone and are in fact exercising admirable restraint.

As for the OWS protesters, I don't think most of them are purposefully provoking arrest. A few may be. But civil disobedience is as American as apple pie - in fact I'd say it's more American than apple pie. So more power to them, and more power to the good people in law enforcement too. Let's not invent villains where there are none.

Mike D. said...

Not Really,

Clearly, you are correct. In any protest like this, you will find a wide diversity within the group. Some may be peaceful, some may be violent. Some may have come as individuals, drawn to the cause, and some may be following the marching orders of their political organization.

But I really am curious about the concept of staging arrests. I realize that video I linked is narrated by a Conservative, and his commentary does not interest me. What interests me is the raw video which definitely shows arrests being carefully orchestrated, and I would really like to understand the purpose of that. Getting arrested is a bad thing, isn't it?

Is it to show that the authorities are mean people? If individuals are being coached, trained in exactly how to get arrested, then it seems to me that someone is exploiting good people dishonestly, forcing them to do something they are not inclined to do in order to make them hurt their own reputations. Isn't that the classic definition of 'entrapment', only reversed?

Anonymous said...

If the protesters were breaking the law, the the sergeant should have been arrested for obstructing justice.

Liberal POV said...


"If the protesters were breaking the law, the sergeant should have been arrested for obstructing justice."

Interesting how those who claim to love freedom seem to prefer that freedom as a word on a slogan not actually practiced and spend the energy lobbying for a police state as the current GOP is now doing.

Example of police state actions supported by conservative groups are the new Alabama immigration law, Home Land security extensions, Turning over anyone ACCUSED of being a terrorist suspect ing Americans to the military not the justice department to be detained without a trial or habeas corpus rights.
The conservative continue to support human rights abuse while claiming to be supporters of freedom.

Mike D. said...

Liberal POV,

You don't want to have a philosophical discussion, I see. All you care to do is point your finger at perceived enemies.

Look, I have read your writing for years, and I know you have the ability to have an honest conversation. So please, would you put down the weapons and help me understand this?

Brushfire, how about you? what is the risk of letting me in on understanding the tactic of staging arrests?

Liberal POV said...

Mike D

You always want to present yourself as a humanitarian but you aways defend those welding the weapons, be it a billy club, torture, human rights abuse, banking fees, Verizon fees, foreclosure or low wage jobs.

You alway seem to have just enough courage to stand with the most politically powerful against the least powerful.

We have seen you time and again stand for discrimination while claiming to have friend among those discriminated against.

The top 1% has seen income increases of 275% over the last 30 years, much of that should have gone to the other 99% in the form of wages, taxes for schools, mass transit, paying for the wars they profited from, dividends on investment,lower fees for goods and services for low income wage earner, lower state tuition fees at universities.

I think you should find new role models for courage. Rush as a role model is a poor choice.

Brushfire said...

Mike - Civil disobedience has a long honorable history in the fight against tyranny. In this case the Wall Street protestors are protesting against the influence of corporate money in politics and the creation of a plutocracy in place of our representative government. You can read the wikipedia article on civil disobedience or read Thoreau, MLK, or Gandi on the necessity for civil disobedience.
The specific reason for creating a spectacle is that the media will ignore a peaceful tame demonstration ( unless it is sponsored by said media ie - Teaparty - Fox "news" events). You may recall that any street corner gathering of 20 people in funny hats got front-page coverage when they called themselves "tea-party" but the Wall Street demonstrations had been going on for WEEKS before they drew any attention at all. Btw, don't you find it deliciously ironic that the original tea party was a felonious act of vandalism against a corporation in bed with the government?

Mike D. said...

Liberal POV word count = 151

Brushfire word count = 160

Words spent discussing scripted, provoked, intentional arrests = 0

I don't get it. Why will not either of you lay down your weapons and hold an honest conversation? What are you afraid of? Judgment from your peers? Opening your minds? Is this a religious thing?

For the life of me, I do not understand how people as intelligent as the two of you are can be so wrapped up in a partisan game that you cannot break free long enough to have a simple, honest conversation about one little thing.

Planned arrests, as part of a protest... can we try this again?

Matt Robinson, where are you? I may not always agree with your answers, but at least I know I'll get an honest answer instead of the obfuscation, subterfuge, and smokescreen I'm getting here.

Seriously, why are the two of you unable or unwilling to participate in an honest dialogue? Does honesty threaten your religion?

One more time, let's try the simple question: Training and rehearsing, planning to get arrested and learning precisely how to make it happen, then doing it... what's the rationale, the benefit, the purpose, the goal?

Brushfire said...

Mike - As you were counting the words, did you read them? Specific reason to get arrested in flamboyant ways - see paragraph 2 of my reply.
To repeat: The specific reason to create a spectacle is to force media attention.
Without Fox "news" ginning up the hype, demonstrators needed to force the media to pay attention to the issues.
Still not clear enough?

Liberal POV said...

Mike D

The weapons of the Occupy Wall Street are cameras, Youtube, twitter and Facebook documenting the over reaction by those use to alway controlling power.

This OWS movement has America's greedy frightened as similar protest in Cairo frightened those controling the injustice and corrupt in Egypt.

You should find the answers to your questions on Youtube.

Anonymous said...

"The weapons of the Occupy Wall Street are cameras, Youtube, twitter and Facebook documenting the over reaction by those use to alway controlling power.

They are also documenting the violent actions of these criminal thugs that are OWS.

Mike D. said...

Liberal POV,

The people in Cairo were fighting for freedom, liberty. The people in Zuccotti Park are fighting for money. The people in Cairo laid down their lives to achieve that freedom. The people in Zuccotti Park risk nothing.

There is no comparison, as much as you would have everyone believe otherwise.

Mike D. said...


On Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals:

"The organizer's function, he added, was "to agitate to the point of conflict" and "to maneuver and bait the establishment so that it will publicly attack him as a 'dangerous enemy.'" "The word 'enemy,'" said Alinsky, "is sufficient to put the
organizer on the side of the people"; i.e., to convince members of the community that he is so
eager to advocate on their behalf, that he has willingly opened himself up to condemnation and

""The enemy properly goaded and guided in his reaction will be your major strength," said Alinsky. He advised organizers to "laugh at the enemy" in an effort to provoke "an irrational anger." "Ridicule," said Alinsky, "is man's most potent weapon. It is
almost impossible to counterattack ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, who then react to your advantage.""

"Alinsky also taught that in some cases the mission of the People's Organization could be aided if
the organizer was able to get himself arrested and thereafter exploit the publicity he derived from the arrest. "Jailing the revolutionary leaders and their followers," Alinsky said, "… strengthens immeasurably the position of the leaders with their people by surrounding the jailed leadership with an aura of martyrdom; it deepens the identification of the leadership with their people." It shows, he said, "that their leadership cares so much for them, and is so sincerely committed to the issue, that it is willing to suffer imprisonment for the cause.""

Brushfire, as you can see, I did a little research of my own. This is very interesting stuff! It seems there may be a little bit more to staged arrests than simply getting the media to cover the event! Is this the first time you've encountered such descriptions of staged arrests?

Liberal POV said...

Mike D
Your post show you have the courage to stand with those with power and wealth and weld weapons against the weakest in society. Those weapons are billy clubs, banking fees, increased interest rates, low wages, union busting, demonization, prisonsand lack of affordable health care.

Liberal POV said...


"If the protesters were breaking the law, the sergeant should have been arrested for obstructing justice."

This is another example of conservatives wanting the word "freedom" only as a slogan on a patriotic political ad but get pissed and want someone jailed for exercising their freedom.

The conservative movement is really a police state movement to protect the rights of multi national corporations and America's 400 wealthiest families.

Mike D take note here, you don't have to travel far to find someone wanting to use the police to bring down the hammer of repression and limit freedom when they disagree with the protest.

Brushfire said...

No MIke - The only weapon we have against oppression is knowledge and awareness. The consolidation of the media which has been going on for decades is a deliberate attempt to control our awareness. The so -called "Teaparty" was a fake movement completed with corporate funded buses and Fox sponsored rallies. These got front page attention for months. The genuine people's uprising had been going on peacefully for weeks before the news even carried a hint of it. Why don't you stop trying to slander and smear us by using all the loaded words-radical-communist-leftist-dirty-etc.
Can you answer these questions?
Should corporations have special legal protections AND the same civil rights as real people?
Does money = speech?
Is the extreme inequalit of wealth we now have in this country compatible with our democratic ideals?

Anonymous said...

Brushfire, the saner to your question is yes.

Should protesters be allowed to violently break the rule of law without being prosecuted for doing so?